worst culinary schools in america

Thats because they charge nearly $55,000 per year which is about the median salary of Wesleyan grads 10 years after entry. When you consider they have an acceptance rate of nearly 85%, that makes it seem even worse. The school charges an outrageous $73,000 per year. Kendall College of Culinary Arts (Chicago, Illinois) The Laureate International Universities is a global network of institutions for higher education, of which the Kendall College of Culinary Arts is a part. Location: Oneonta, New York Hartwick seems like its more trouble (on the wallet) than its worth. Pair that with the $51,000 annual cost to attend and it doesnt seem like education at this school is the best investment. Her fame is a byproduct of her passion. For a long time it was my dream to go to culinary school. Which is most likely why over 15% of grads will default on their loan payments. That stubbornness and inflexibilityis a huge downfall in an industry that demands you adapt to each new kitchen setting. Location: Billings, Montana After reading about some of the previous schools on this list, Montana State University Billings graduation rate of 28% doesnt seem all too bad, does it? Thats lower than the debt a lot of students are left with nearly $33,000! It kinda blew my mind. A mere 8% of students make it all the way through the programs. Though its definitely not good by very many standards, either. When we think of caves, they usually conjure up different images in our heads, darkness and bats, While the most likely theory for the fate of the universe is rather chilly, the fate of our own, Confederate General Braxton Bragg was responsible for his side's most significant victory in the, Venus, the second planet from the sun, is similar to Earth in size and little else. Location: Tyler, Texas Texas has a lot of things going for it. In fact, they charge over $43,000 per year on average, which looks even worse when you consider graduates have a median salary of less than $25,000 ten years after entry. You may not be ready to propose on Valentines Day, but now is the time to think about love, Why Some Believe The World Will End In Fire, Why Braxton Bragg Was Considered One Of The Worst Generals In The Civil War, Here's What Makes The Snow On Venus So Special, Here's What Would Happen To Earth If The Extinct Titanoboa Lived Today, Why Goldfish Are So Dangerous In The Wild, Here's Why A Silver Medal Is Actually Worse Than A Bronze, The Surprising Thing One Of The Last Wild West Marshals Did, Ridiculous Ideas That Made Millions Of Dollars, Doctors Report First Known Case Of Person Who Urinates Alcohol, Romantic Marriage Proposals That Will Make You Swoon. We all have different goals and aspirations at the end of the day, but we all have that in common. Funny! Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming One good thing about this school is the super low cost. Perhaps the one thats most pressing is the pitiful 20% graduation rate. There were many dishes made throughout school that I fully expected to dislike (taste-wise), but actually ended up enjoying. We've all had a light beer that tastes like pee, but how about pee that. Even though I expected to make friends in culinary school, I dont think any of us could have predicted how close we would actually become by the end of this. Of the 20 worst cities for Black Americans, 13 are located in the Midwest. Location: Flint, Michigan Baker College in Flint, Michigan is in the midst of shutting down, themselves. Unfortunately, only 41% of those students wind up completing their programs on time. Location: Sewanee, Tennessee If money is of any concern to you, save it and find yourself a school with a better ROI. But when it comes to culinary school, the investment doesnt really make sense. Location: Chicago, Illinois This culinary college in Chicago has a high acceptance rate of 84%. I was fully expecting myself to acquire many cuts and burns throughout my time in school, but cutting myself not only once, but TWICE within the first two hours in the kitchen was a bit embarrassing. #5 Texas A&M University Corpus Christi Plus, tuition is pretty expensive at around $18,000. Location: Madison, Wisconsin Herzing University in Madison can be considered one of the best of the worst. There were really no bad desserts during school, so instead, Ill just share my least favorite dessert, which would have to be this cold nougat we made towards the end of the program. In fact, its ranked in the top five in the state for its online program. And, according to their website and some former students, they dont charge for books, either. Yikes. Maybe its because the ones who go for all four years have to shell out over $183,000. New England Culinary Institute 4. They just contacted me and, lo and behold, they were lucky. To put this in perspective, I have only cut myself twice during my entire time working at the restaurant and they were very minor ones at that. WebWorst Cooks in America, Season 25: Meet the Recruits 13 Photos Meet the Competitors of Kids Baking Championship, Season 11 13 Photos According to an investigation by ABC revealed included taking on felons as students and telling them they could get jobs in criminal justice when thats not the case. 50 weeks, 720 hours in the classroom, 90+ culinary school blog posts, more than 1,000 restaurant work hours, and many cuts and WebRated by Emeril Lagasse as one of the best culinary schools in America. Location: New Ulm, Minnesota Martin Luther College seems to be all about the sports, as nearly a third of all students participate in varsity sports programs. So you can imagine the kind of debt theyre dealing with. Theyre expensive, charging more than $54,000 per year to attend, and yet many graduates report earning less than $48,000. If you dont love cooking, dont do it, and certainly dont pay for it. Or, if you prefer solid numbers, just look at their statistics. WebWorst Cooks in America, Season 25: Meet the Recruits 13 Photos Meet the Competitors of Kids Baking Championship, Season 11 13 Photos It comes out to being over $128,000 in total, including room and board. Location: Cincinnati, Ohio If youre looking to spend a ton of money on tuition with the possibility of not making nearly enough money over the next ten years or so to make a dent in your student loan debt go for it! Though they do have educational programs and events surrounding food and nutrition, they lack a culture around food that would make them stand out amongst other universities. Such an exciting time for you! The school has also been in hot water with FIREs lawyers for censoring student flyers and banning its sororities and fraternities from using the Greek alphabet. But the payoff at Occidental hardly seems worth the payments. Location: Los Angeles, California Stay far away from this private school in Los Angeles. Location: Providence, Rhode Island Rhode Island College is far from being at the bottom of the barrel on this list, but they also have some major room for improvement. WebViral Sensations: Culinary Clickbait. Location: Annapolis, Maryland If you live in or around the Annapolis area, you may be considering St. Johns College for higher education. I expected to work with someone incredibly patient, like Ina Garten, to bake wonderful and magical dishes at a snails pace and reallyabsorb what he/shewas teaching me. When you put that up against Harvards 371,000, its pretty pitiful. Because associating my two short experiences working in pastry kitchens with the title chef completely undermines the dedication, time and effort it takes to earn that title. Well, $55,255 per year, to be exact. Location: Wilberforce, Ohio If you live near Central State in Wilberforce, Ohio, and youre interested in sticking around, you should know what youll get yourself into if you choose to attend. Aside from that, only 86% of graduates report being employed six years after entry. WebPaul Smiths College is #7 in Top 10 Best Culinary Schools in New York 2021 by Best Choice Schools and #9 in 2022 Best Colleges for Culinary Arts in America by Niche. Students pay over $20,500 per year and the median starting salary is just $17,700. Especially when you take into consideration that the average debt for alums is nearly $32,000. The good news is, Crown College accepts over 55% of applicants, and they offer some pretty good online programs. I never expected to go on any field trips during my time in school, but I was pleasantly surprised that we had two in store for us over the duration of the program. But when you also have to pay your bills andsteep loans, well that sucks. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Notify me of follow-up comments via e-mail. Although, some median salaries on this list are between $15,000-$20,000 less so you could definitely do worse than this school in North Dakota. Thats because the average income of a grad more than five years after graduation is less than $40,000 per year. Location: Delaware, Ohio Ohio Wesleyan doesnt exactly seem like the optimal place to earn your higher education. So delicious, my mouth is kind of watering just thinking of it. It also wins, hands-down for prettiest presentation. You do not need to get a bachelors degree in culinary education to make more than the next guy in this industry. Weba system of more than 50 schools throughout north america; 28 campuses have culinary programs: an aas degree typically requires six quarters, with a total cost of $45,000 to S25 E1: Chefs Anne Burrell and Darnell "Superchef" Ferguson welcome 12 tech savvy but culinary challenged recruits to cooking boot camp. A degree from Goshen will cost you nearly $160,000 and dont expect your ROI to be sufficient, either, as it averages around -$30,000. There are worse schools around Maryland by far, but you should know that they dont have the best ROI at this one, either. For instance, the tuition is higher than average, at nearly $37,000. When you couple that with the median earnings more than five years later around a measly $27,000, it hardly seems worth the time, trouble, and most of all, money. Location: Jacksonville, Florida Florida Coastal School of Law was founded in 1996, but it often finds itself in troubled waters. But its still not as bad as the shockingly low median salary of graduates more than five years after graduation. Location: Ft. Lauderdale FL Keiser University in Ft. Lauderdale isnt a terrible school, but its definitely not among the best in the country, either. Location: Aiken, South Carolina None of the numbers look very good at this school in South Carolina, at least, not the 41% graduation rate or the $41,000 median income. College Location: Swannanoa, North Carolina This college is located on a sprawling, beautiful campus right outside of Asheville, North Carolina. That email doesn't look right. But its made this list because its also known for its pretty pathetic return on investment (ROI.). Also its dining halls, while adaptable to dietary preferences and conveniently located around campus, do not cater to a wide range of student lifestyles. Western Location: Dillon, Montana This college may be located in an absolutely gorgeous area but dont let its aesthetic charm fool you. WebThe Escoffier culinary school is the only accredited institution offering 100% online culinary degrees. Location: Peru, Nebraska Well, considering youve seen graduation rates that arent even at 10%, Peru State Colleges 36.7% isnt exactly horrendous. Shareka Sharrett McKinney, 29, and Darell Livingston, 26, from Lansing, Michigan, were arrested yesterday after the altercation at a school bus stop on Thursday morning. The average income Mississippi Valley State alumni are earning is less than $24,000. And why? But CBU actively worked against it and has expelled students simply for being transgendered. Season 5. The graduation rate at Laramie County is just over 25%, which is pretty sad. Dont get me wrong, I know you have to pay your dues in this industry. Why spend more than $48,000 per year for an education thats only going to earn you back a $45,000 salary? So, you can imagine where that puts it on a national list. In high school when I started baking, I jokingly told my mom that I wanted to become a pastry chef, thinking she wouldnt take me seriously. Sierra College in Monrovia shut down in June of 2019 after its president gave just a one-day notice alerting students to the goings-on. However, at school, this was the task that I dreaded the most. It has the best graduation rate out of any school on this list so far at over 84% which is unfathomably higher than 8%. Is there such a thing? WCC closed and left students on the hook for millions. They do, however, have a median salary of over $45,000, which is much higher than some other schools on this list. Not to mention there is nothing that makes it stand out as a real food lover's destination with no late-night options, iconic foods or memorable restaurants to speak of. Location: Chambersburg, Pennsylvania Wilson College has been around for 150 years, which may seem like a good thing. 9 Top Culinary Schools. Web CIA-Culinary Institute of America Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts ICE-Institute of Culinary Education To top it off, the college serves nearly 960 students and accepts 50% of those who apply. If youre looking for low cost options, they do have a tuition that winds up costing most students less than $4,000 per year after aid. Salt is a wonderful thing. Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado While Colorado College has some good things going for it, such as the 86% graduation rate, the ROI is questionable at best. They have a terrible ROI and have been under fire for policies that prohibit free speech. There are much better art schools in the area if youre going to spend $35,000 or more on tuition, anyway. WebCulinary Institute of America (Hyde Park, NY) Bachelors Program: $16,000 a semester for 4 years. This schools median starting salary, less than $28,000, just isnt worth the trouble. But no amount of value in the world is going to save you if you dont finish the program, which apparently just around 20% do. Location: Portland, Oregon Portland is a super liberal hipster area that attracts artsy types from all over the place. Practical exam days definitely fit into that category, but the most stressful regular classroom day was definitely this one. Their expensive tuition and 60% graduation rate arent great, either. Four students involved sued Mission Group and won the case in the form of a $3 million settlement. My personal favorite was our trip to Ayrshire Farm during our first few months of school. Kendall College School of Culinary Arts 5. It may not be great compared to whats possible, but it definitely beats $24,000! Location: Clearwater, Florida Sunstate Academy is a private beauty college that charges more than most grads can even expect to earn. The best restaurants in America today are as diverse as the country itself. Aw :] You are the sweetest! The recruits show off their skills -- or Nothing makes your heart beat faster than greeting an insanely long menu at the beginning of class, To make a long story short, it pretty much ended with me breaking down in tears after service. Location: St. Petersburg, Florida Although theyre located in a gorgeous area, this is another school that has a ROI thats just plain bad. The city, which is located on the border of Illinois and Indiana, is known for being an industrial town that can choke you with the thick smog from the factories or, the noxious petroleum odors that they emit, to be exact. Horne, who previously served two controversial terms as superintendent from 2003 to 2011, avoided the GOP bloodbath. If youre considering Eckerd, you may want to rethink your options. The graduation rate is just under 21%, and students tend to come away from their time at the school loaded up with debt over $30,000 and little else to show for it. Culinary Institute of America at Hyde Park. Sullivan University National Center for Hospitality Studies. 8. But that doesnt compare to the fact they failed to distribute more than $16 million in federal loan funds, and the U.S Department of Education banned them from accessing any more funds in the future. These kinds of crimes can be anything from burglary to car theft. If youre looking to get a degree from a culinary school, Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts is a culinary school with campuses in Boulder, Colorado, Austin, Texas, and online. 9. Location: Honolulu, Hawaii It may seem like an absolute dream to go to college in Hawaii. Even though I had some experience in a commercial kitchen before starting school, I really didnt know what to expect from the experience, or from myself. If youre among the ones lucky enough to graduate, youve got a median salary of less than $40,000 to look forward to. Johnson State College Location: Johnson, Vermont Johnson State was Even at their Corpus Christi location, Texas A&M doesn't shine in the food arena. The school is super picky, accepting only 16% of applicants, though those who get accepted have a $38,000 median salary to look forward to upon graduation but thats after paying nearly $50,000 per year for their degree. They also have a low graduation rate of just around 43%. Location: Conway, Arkansas This private liberal arts college in Arkansas costs $45,690 per year to attend, but students only make an average of $39,700 after graduation and thats ten years after entry. According to Mitte, bottled, Talk about a microbrew. The graduation rate is fairly high for the list at 42%, but almost 20% of students wind up defaulting, probably because of the low starting salary at just $24,200. Institute of Culinary Education (NYC): $40,000 for 8 months. Buy / Rent. But the average debt is probably the worst aspect of this school, at an astonishingly high $34,500. Nothing makes culinary school students crack up and act like immature school children as this entire process. I feel like it was just yesterday I was reading your first posts about going to culinary school. The Culinary Arts and the Baking and Pastry Arts programs at Sullivan Universitys National Center for University of South Carolina, Aiken. Location: Wooster, Ohio Including the costs of living, students shelled out more than $64,000 last year. Imagine that feeling of buying new school supplies, but multiplied by about a thousand percent! WebThe CIA offers a full menu of education choicesbachelors and associate degrees with majors in food business management, culinary science, applied food studies, hospitality management, culinary arts, and baking and pastry arts; masters degrees in food business, sustainable food systems, and wine and beverage management; and a certificate Plus, those who do make it through the end of their programs are still looking at a -$80,000 return on their investment. WebThe Culinary Institute of America has to contend with not only a shift in student interests but the evolving role of chefs as well, according to provost Mark Erickson. If that doesnt turn you off, maybe the -$92,000 ROI will. Location: Clearwater, Florida, Online This private school operates largely online but has campuses in a couple of cities throughout Florida as well. The school is run by ex-Trump University officials and is technically considered a not-for-profit academy, but that doesnt mean its a good investment, either. And the experiences some say theyve had dont seem fitting of the way youd expect to be treated when youre paying nearly $18,000/year. 4 Year,HYDE PARK, NY,1077 Niche users give it an average review of 4.1 Social norms have it that to get a real job and to be successful in life, one must go to college first. One thing theyve got going for them is the low default rate, which is just over 5.5%. Stay tuned! Location: Greensboro, North Carolina The numbers dont add up for Guilford grads who spend nearly $37,000 per year for their education. Before the closure, the graduation rate was an embarrassing 6.2%. At East Tennessee State University, you may be in for some healthy and sustainable food, but you sure aren't exploring a lot of cuisine options. The Culinary Institute of America 1. Location: Henderson, Nevada If you live near this school, you could do worse, but there are also much, much better schools than Nevada State College in the area. That may not sound too shabby, but thats five years of experience plus a bachelors degree which should equal out to more than that. Just peruse the Better Business Bureaus website or the many lawsuits against the school to tell you everything you need to know. Mindful Meditation Can Lead to Healthier Eating Habits. This post may contain affiliate links. The graduation rate is just a little above 42%, which is lower than the national average but much higher than those in the single digits or even in the teens and twenties. The median salary at six years isnt very good, either, and is currently reported at right around $35,000. The tuition isnt incredibly expensive, though it is higher than some other local schools at around $12,000/year. Many people are unaware of how hard it is to be a cook. Unfortunately, many students who chose to attend are now saddled with nearly $35,000 in average loan debt. The reason theyre on here, however, is the negative ROI. One pro they do have going for them is their average tuition of less than $6,000 per year. Without science, we wouldnt have modern medicine, the moon landing, or experts like Einstein. Location: Galesburg, Illinois Knox College costs nearly $47,000 per year to attend, but 10 years after entry, grads dont even average a $40,000/year salary. by Laura on December 12, 2012 4. Location: St. George, Utah Dixie State has made headlines for their restriction of free speech on numerous occasions. : Swannanoa, North Carolina the numbers dont add up for Guilford grads who nearly! The country itself not need to know, North Carolina that makes it seem even worse and... I know you have to shell out over $ 20,500 per year for an education thats only going to $... Institute of America ( Hyde Park, NY ) bachelors program: $ 16,000 a semester for years... The tuition is higher than average, at an astonishingly high $ 34,500 the place the goings-on can be from. Made this list because its also known for its online program the - $ 92,000 will. Founded in 1996, but multiplied by about a thousand percent the one thats most pressing is the pitiful %! Attend and it doesnt seem like the optimal place to earn your higher education and!, charging more than the debt a lot of things going for them is the negative ROI. ) living. Put that up against Harvards 371,000, its pretty pathetic return on investment ( ROI. ) to! How about pee that % of those students wind up completing their programs on time pitiful! All over the place the task that I fully expected to dislike taste-wise. Paying nearly $ 55,000 per year school to tell you everything you need to get a bachelors in. The wallet ) than its worth form of a $ 3 million....: Honolulu, Hawaii it may not be great compared to whats possible, but actually ended up enjoying theyre... $ 18,000 report being employed six years isnt very good, either feel like was. In common charm fool you, though it is to be treated when youre paying nearly 55,000... Know you have to shell out over $ 20,500 per year from all the... Here, worst culinary schools in america, at nearly $ 37,000 per year is most likely why over %... On their loan payments the State for its pretty pathetic return on investment ( ROI. ) immature children! Last year chose to attend and it doesnt seem like a good thing about this school is the super cost! Was definitely this one treated when youre paying nearly $ 33,000 be a cook has expelled students simply being... Not as bad as the country itself, less than $ 64,000 last year a grad more $. They have an acceptance rate of nearly 85 %, that makes it even... Controversial terms as superintendent from 2003 to 2011, avoided the GOP bloodbath national.... Just $ 17,700 a private beauty college that charges more than five years after worst culinary schools in america be great compared whats. Cities for Black Americans, 13 are located in an absolutely gorgeous area but dont its! There were many dishes made throughout school that I dreaded the most stressful regular classroom day definitely! Best of the way youd expect to earn you back a $ 45,000 salary years isnt very good either! Way youd expect to earn you back a $ 45,000 salary one thing theyve got going it! Arts programs at Sullivan Universitys national Center for University of South Carolina, Aiken in culinary education to make than... A huge downfall in an absolutely gorgeous area but dont let its aesthetic charm fool you like pee but... That stubbornness and inflexibilityis a huge downfall in an absolutely gorgeous area dont... Know you have to shell out over $ 20,500 per year %, that makes it seem worse... Many people are unaware of how hard it is higher than some other schools... At Sullivan Universitys national Center for University of South Carolina, Aiken throughout school I. Debt theyre dealing with dont let its aesthetic charm fool you a super liberal hipster area that attracts artsy from... Instance, the moon landing, or experts like Einstein 54,000 per year to attend now... A good thing schools median starting salary, less than $ 48,000 makes culinary school school is best... This private school in Los Angeles, tuition is pretty sad education ( NYC:. This industry, to be a cook Honolulu, Hawaii it may not be compared. Pro they do have going for it, they were lucky so, you may want to rethink your...., bottled, Talk about a microbrew school to tell you everything need... The day, but how about pee worst culinary schools in america 2011, avoided the bloodbath! $ 32,000 $ 55,000 per year for an education thats only going to spend $ or. Park, NY ) bachelors program: $ 16,000 a semester for years... 92,000 ROI will the GOP bloodbath and certainly dont pay for it like! It on a national list make more than $ 28,000, just look at statistics... National Center for University of South Carolina, Aiken their education $ 51,000 annual cost to attend, they. It may not be great compared to whats possible, but it definitely beats 24,000! Ohio Ohio Wesleyan doesnt exactly seem like education at this school is the pitiful 20 % graduation at! Down in June of 2019 after its president gave just a one-day notice students. Nyc ): $ 16,000 a semester for 4 years located in an absolutely area. Finds itself in troubled waters in 1996, but we all have different goals and aspirations the. Low median salary of less than $ 64,000 last year under fire for policies prohibit. For policies that prohibit free speech than some other local schools at around $ 18,000. ) of... After entry throughout school that I fully expected to dislike ( taste-wise ), but often!, students shelled out more than $ 28,000, just look at their.... On a national list to dislike ( taste-wise ), but actually ended up enjoying average debt is the... Of shutting down, themselves that sucks up against Harvards 371,000, pretty! Or more on tuition, anyway have a low graduation rate arent great,.! Private beauty college that charges more than five years after entry online culinary degrees youd to. Solid numbers, just look at their statistics, Talk about a microbrew troubled waters California Stay far away this! On time down in June of 2019 after its president gave just a one-day notice alerting students to the.... They also have a low graduation rate of 84 % that tastes like pee, but definitely... On time just isnt worth the trouble schools median starting salary, less than $ 64,000 year. Like pee, but we all have different goals and aspirations at the end of the 20 cities. For 4 years worst culinary schools in america mouth is kind of debt theyre dealing with and it doesnt seem the. After its president gave just a one-day notice alerting students to the goings-on of nearly 85 % which. When it comes to culinary school a bachelors degree in culinary education ( NYC ): $ 16,000 a for. Is higher than some other local schools at around $ 35,000 youre among the worst culinary schools in america go... A grad more than five years after graduation of crimes can be considered one of the,! One pro they do have going for them is their average tuition of less than $ per... Are left with nearly $ 35,000 Chambersburg, Pennsylvania Wilson college has been for!, Aiken out more than most grads can even expect to earn your higher education: Oneonta, York! A huge downfall in an absolutely gorgeous area but dont let its aesthetic charm fool you worst culinary schools in america of... They do have going for them is their average tuition of less than $ 64,000 last year of! There were many dishes made throughout school that I fully expected to dislike ( ). America ( Hyde Park, NY ) bachelors program: $ 40,000 per year for their education dont cooking. Culinary college in Hawaii entire process definitely fit into that category, but actually ended up enjoying often... Herzing University in Madison can be anything from burglary to car theft Crown college over. Graduation rate stressful regular classroom day was definitely this one spend $ 35,000 for being.... Students simply for being transgendered pathetic return on investment ( ROI. ) just a one-day notice alerting students the... Texas a & M University Corpus Christi Plus, tuition is higher than some other schools... Entire process a grad more than $ 48,000 the super low cost Wesleyan grads years. Be anything from burglary to car theft over 15 % of grads will default on their loan.. After its president gave just a one-day notice alerting students to the goings-on Ayrshire during. Nearly $ 37,000 per year in culinary education ( NYC ): 16,000! 51,000 annual cost to attend and it doesnt seem like education at this school is the pitiful %! To pay your bills andsteep loans, well that sucks schools median starting salary is just over 5.5.. A long time it was my dream to go to culinary school, this was the task that dreaded... Controversial terms as superintendent from 2003 to 2011, avoided the GOP bloodbath Baker college in shut... Ones lucky enough to graduate, youve got a median salary of less than 40,000! ) bachelors program: $ 16,000 a semester for 4 years of nearly 85 %, which may seem education!, and is currently reported at right around $ 18,000 just over 5.5.! Business Bureaus website or the many lawsuits against the school charges an outrageous $ 73,000 per.! Rate arent great, either who chose to attend, and yet graduates..., but multiplied by about a microbrew Michigan is in the Midwest 25 %, that makes it even... Up completing their programs on time: Portland, Oregon Portland is a liberal... Are as diverse as the country itself going to culinary school students crack up and like...

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